RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

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RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Yuan'Do on Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:00 am

The Oxheart RPG system is now in the works.  After a short discussion over skype and online, this work will be limited to those who are interesting in testing my idea.  
This is not planned on being implemented guild wide.

The Oxheart what?
The simple explanation is that I am trying to add several small mechanics (and one big one) to the current DM rolling system used by most RP guilds on WoW and certainly on Defias.
This rolling system will be kept as simple as possible so as not to rely on addons or out of game programs.  It will use plain character sheets, allowing for the inclusion of roll modifiers and a limited degree of character customization.  The idea was largely taken from the tabletop role playing games WoW and the Warcraft universe was inspired by.

A simple explanation

The current rolling system relies a lot on DM discretion during events and largely does not accomodate significant character specilisation.  While not impossible, the DM is handling most of the information going through an event and it is often difficult to track individual character needs - particularly during larger scale events.  The solution?  Allow players to manage their own specialties.  Let them pick their strengths and weaknesses.

Yuan'Do attempts to slash an enemy with her spear.  /roll.  15 (1-100).  
In this example, the Pandaren has clearly missed.  Within reason, most DMs will set the bar to wound on 50 or higher.  This means that a character, regardless of training or proficiency with a given weapon, has roughly a 50% to successfully perform their actions.

With my system, I plan to reduce this problem.  Here is another simple example.

Yuan'Do has put four points into polearm mastery.  Each point represents 5 on a 100 dice roll.  In this case, four points equates to 20.
This 20 can be taken into the rolling system by simply changing the command from '/roll' to '/roll 20-100'.

Yuan'Do slashes out with her spear again, trying to strike a target.  /roll 20-100.  55 (20-100).
Using this simple approach, characters can grow and specialize to a higher level than before.  The mechanics are simple and easy to learn.

This seems too easy.
While the system is certainly not as in-depth as more complex RPGs, this serves two purposes.  
First, I want people to be able to make a character sheet and go quickly.
Second, while this system is still very much a work in progress, I want it to remain accessible to newcomers.  We are a band, and I want you all to enjoy yourselves as much as possible.

How do I keep track of my skills?
Each character is unique.  Using a simple character sheet, you can keep track of your skills and points towards earning new ones.
When a sheet is made, characters will begin in one of three states - 'Novice', 'Seasoned' or 'Veteran'.  Each of these types has a set number of points that can be allocated to skills.
Is your character a fresh faced soldier?  Then you might want to consider starting out as a Novice.  An elderly archmage?  The Veteran is the path for you.

Do we get talents?
In lieu of talents, I plan to add a Feat system.  For every X numbers of points earned, a character may select one feat.  This can range from permanent stat increases to immunity from certain effects.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here is an example of a character sheet - In this case, Yuan'Do.  Yuan'Do is a Seasoned character, and as such, she begins with 17 major skillpoints and 70 minor skillpoints.

Name: Yuan'Do Oxheart
Type: Fighter, Protection
Species: Pandaren
Gender: Female

Intelligence: 3
Magical Weaponry: 0
Light Armor: 2
Destructive Magic: 0
Beneficial Magic: 0
Utility Magic: 0
Lore: 4

Agility: 2
Small Handheld Weaponry: 3
Medium Armor: 3
Sneak: 2
Lockpicking: 1
Search: 4
Ranged Weaponry: 3

Stamina: 4
Heavy Armor:4
Shield Defence: 4
Athletics: 4
Physical Recovery: 4
First Aid: 3

Spirit: 3
Courage: 4
Mana Recovery 0
Faith 3
Charisma: 4
Willpower: 4

Strength: 4
Large Handheld Weaponry: 4
Unarmed: 4
Carry Capacity: 3
Overpower: 3
Intimidate: 2

Sample Feats for a Warrior:
 Lionhearted - Immune to fear effects
 Booming Voice - Shouts and taunts are more effective, DM discretion required.
 Second Skin - Unhindered by heavy arms and armor.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The skills above in bold are major skills, and each has several minor skills attached to it.

Each Skill can be levelled up to a maximum of 6, meaning up to +30 on a roll modifier.  This is to allow for growth without making characters imbalanced.

A Novice Character will begin with 14 Major Skillspoints and 60 Minor Skillpoints.
A Seasoned Character will begin with 17 Major Skillpoints and 70 Minor Skillpoints.
A Veteran Character will begin with 20 Major Skillpoints and 80 Minor Skillpoints.

Novice and Seasoned Characters may begin with their skill level at 4 or below.  Veteran Characters may begin with skills at any level, up to the maximum of 6.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

How do skills level up?

At the end of each event, a DM may award players a reasonable number of Oxheart points.  These can be spent to upgrade skills over time.

To figure out how many points are required to level a minor skill, the player multiplies their current minor skill level by the major skilll associated with it.
Levelling First Aid from level 3 to 4 will require First Aid level x Stamina level.  3 x 4 = 12 Oxheart points required.
Levelling Lockpicking from level 1 to 2 will require Lockpicking x Agility level. 1 x 2 = 2 Oxheart points required.

Levelling a Major skill will require the sum of all associated minor skills, added to the total number of Major points a character has accumulated.
To level Intelligence, Yuan'Do must pay 23 Oxheart points. Her Intelligence skills add up to 6, and her total Major points comes to 17. 6+17 = 23.

Earning an Oxheart point should not be given lightly.  A long, thorough event may only award one or two points.  Special rewards may be given for boss battles or as rare loot.


Thank you for reading.  At time of writing, there are some things that I still need to cover.  This post is here to put thought to document, and to ask you all to give your suggestions.
Please understand that this is not an invitation to debate your personal opinion on my rolling system.  While I appreciate constructive criticism, this project is for myself and those interested.

I will be making changes to this post and explaining in more detail the feats and creation process once the initial feedback has been posted.  What would you like to see?  Racial bonuses?  Class bonuses?
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Tygos on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:19 am

I liked the ide it makes sense for me at least. would be cool to see this guild wide but that might be hard to do,
Good job Yuan I liked it

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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:37 am

This part I like:
Yuan'Do wrote:This 20 can be taken into the rolling system by simply changing the command from '/roll' to '/roll 20-100'.
This part I don't:
Name: Yuan'Do Oxheart
Type: Fighter, Protection
Species: Pandaren
Gender: Female

Intelligence: 3
Magical Weaponry: 0
Light Armor: 2
Destructive Magic: 0
Beneficial Magic: 0
Utility Magic: 0
Lore: 4

Agility: 2
Small Handheld Weaponry: 3
Medium Armor: 3
Sneak: 2
Lockpicking: 1
Search: 4
Ranged Weaponry: 3

Stamina: 4
Heavy Armor:4
Shield Defence: 4
Athletics: 4
Physical Recovery: 4
First Aid: 3

Spirit: 3
Courage: 4
Mana Recovery 0
Faith 3
Charisma: 4
Willpower: 4

Strength: 4
Large Handheld Weaponry: 4
Unarmed: 4
Carry Capacity: 3
Overpower: 3
Intimidate: 2
This part I just really don't get, do we really need formalized status effects in role play?
Sample Feats for a Warrior:
 Lionhearted - Immune to fear effects
 Booming Voice - Shouts and taunts are more effective, DM discretion required.
 Second Skin - Unhindered by heavy arms and armor.
lol:
At the end of each event, a DM may award players a reasonable number of Oxheart points.  These can be spent to upgrade skills over time.
And this part is just way, waaaaay to complex to even deal with:
To figure out how many points are required to level a minor skill, the player multiplies their current minor skill level by the major skilll associated with it.
Levelling First Aid from level 3 to 4 will require First Aid level x Stamina level.  3 x 4 = 12 Oxheart points required.
Levelling Lockpicking from level 1 to 2 will require Lockpicking x Agility level. 1 x 2 = 2 Oxheart points required.

Levelling a Major skill will require the sum of all associated minor skills, added to the total number of Major points a character has accumulated.
To level Intelligence, Yuan'Do must pay 23 Oxheart points.  Her Intelligence skills add up to 6, and her total Major points comes to 17.  6+17 = 23.

What I like about it is that it can be completely optional. using a roll command that is still based on roll 100 fits right into the usual flow of things, making sure that players who don't want to deal with character sheets won't have to, and the responsibility of dealing with managing the character sheet is left with the player, not the DM.

However, like almost everyone else I've seen ponder up a system of sorts, you've gone way overboard on complexity. You won't need 32 stats to deal with the relatively simple challenges the warcraft environment has to offer. Thin about the context you are designing a system for. Take Athletics for example. A useful stat in a pen & paper game where the environment is largely imagined, and Athletics checks serve the purpose of making rough terrain more tangible. Those rolls make it so that the terrain can effect your character.

In wow, however, there is a terrain. You can walk around on it. And when a mountain is too steep to climb-- Well, it's just too steep to climb. There is a physical game world that takes care of those things, making an Athletics roll obsolete.

And then there are some stats I can't even imagine what their practical purpose is, other then to reduce valuable character interaction to a set of numbers. Things like
Courage, Lore, Search, Lockpicking, Faith, Willpower, Carry Capacity??, Intimidate... What do they even mean? What do they accomplish, that can't be accomplished through role-play instead? The factors of a system have to serve a purpose in the game experience you're trying to design.

I like the idea of personalizing combat rolls and making specialisations a more real thing, especially with the way you're proposing to modify rolls. But you have to select stats with a clear and defined purpose.

Take a look at this system, for example:
http://blackkraken.webs.com/Black_Kraken_Roleplay_Compendium_v.3.0.pdf
It's not perfect, mainly in that the system doesn't allow for DMs to set a roll difficulty to control fights, but it knows to trim the fat and keep things manageable.

----

My biggest issue, however, is this:

It requires the constant moderation of officers. And that is something that here, in the band of the brave, we don't like. I want any member to be able to just pick up and improvise an event on the spot if they feel like it. If you start adding character sheets and experience management, that option will be gone, and that is a sacrifice I am just not willing to make.


EDIT: I recognize one advantage of experience, though, and that is that it might create more guild loyalty. Earning experience gets you invested- I experienced that first hand when I was in an AD guild that used Black Kraken. I didn't want to miss out on events because that would mean missing out on experience, and I wanted to be a badass warlock Razz

EDIT #2:: I would also use a system like this to give players feats based on their chosen class and race, to bridge the divide between rolling systems and gameplay.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:05 am

Yuan and me have been talking about systems throughout the day, and the following is a proposal for a series of base attributes, racial and class feats that I dreamt up during those conversations. Details about the combat system have yet to be written down.

BASE ATTRIBUTES:
These are the base starts that drive combat rolls. Investing points in these will make your character more proficient in making the actions associated with them.

Stamina:
Every point of Endurance adds one wound a character can take before being taken out of the fight.
Wounds can be restored by Mending.

Strength:
Every point of Strength adds +5 to any roll made to make melee attacks, or actions that require physical strength.

Agility:
Every point of Agility adds +5 to any roll made to make ranged attacks, or actions that require precision.

Awareness:
Every point of Awareness adds +5 to any roll made to avoid taking damage, and any roll made to spot things in the environment.

Evocation:
Every point of Evocation adds +5 to any roll made to cast a harmful spell.

Attunement:
Every point of Attunement adds +5 to any roll made to cast non-harmful* spells.
* Example: Protective shields, Wards, buffs, environment changes, weather-- etc.

Mending:
Every point of Mending adds +5 to any roll made to restore a wound.



RACIAL FEATS:
Every race has their own strengths and weaknesses. Racial Feats add some base attributes, and sometimes unique mechanics to your character.

Human:

[The Human Condition]:
Choose one Base Attribute and increase it by 1 point.

Dwarf:

[Short and Stout]:
Increase Stamina and Strength by 1 point.

Night Elf:

[One with the forest]:
Increase Agility and Attunement by 1 point.

Gnome:

[Expansive Mind]:
Reduce Stamina by two points.
Increase Evocation and Attunement by 2 points.

Draenei:

[Gift of the Naaru]:
Increase mending by 3 points.

Worgen:

[Feral Beast]:
Increase Awareness and Strength by 1 point.

Pandaren:

[Bearheart]:
Increase Stamina by 2 points.



CLASS FEATS:
Every class has their own strengths and weaknesses. Class Feats add some base attributes, and sometimes unique mechanics to your character.
The following are made to reflect the classes as they are presented to us in game. If you want to create a snowflake class for your character, you might be able to by staring a dialogue about it.




Druid:

[Wild Senses]:
When performing a roll for tracking in a feral form, temporarily add 2 points to Awareness.

In addition, choose one of the following:

[Druid of the Claw]:
Reduce Evocation by one point, increase Strength and Endurance by one.

Or:

[Druid of the Talon]:
Reduce Strength by one point, increase Evocation by two.

Or:

[Keeper of the Grove]:
Reduce Endurance by one point, increase Mending by two.



Hunter:

[Marksman]:
Increase Agility by two points.

[Survival Instincts]:
Increase Awareness by one point.

[Beast Master]:
The hunter may use their Agility score to attack with their pet.



Mage:

[Scholar]:
Reduce Brawn and Endurance by one point, increase Evocation and Attunement by two.

[Abjuration]:
The character may use their Attunement instead of their Awareness to avoid wounds.



Paladin:

[Champion of the Light]:
Increase Endurance and Mending by one point.

[Divine Intervention]:
Once every fight, a paladin may choose to re-roll a bad roll.

[Smite the wicked]:
When facing an opponent perceived as "evil", the character may make a magic attack using their Mending.



Priest:

Choose one of the following:

[Disciple of Light]:
Reduce Strength by two points, Increase Mending by two points and Attunement by one.

In addition, the priest gains [Smite the Wicked].

Or:

[Acolyte of Shadow]:
Reduce Strength by two points, increase Evocation by two points and Attunement by one.

In addition, the priest gains [Abjuration].



Rogue:

[Stealth]:
When not engaged with an enemy, a rogue may choose to hide.
A hidden rogue cannot be attacked unless revealed.

[Ambush]:
The first attack made from stealth is always successful.
You may still roll to see if it will crit.

[Disengage]:
If a rogue successfully avoids taking a wound, the rogue may choose to Stealth.



Warlock:

[Scholar of the Dark Arts]:
Reduce Strength by two points. Increase Evocation by two points, and Endurance by one.

[Blood Pact]:
When the warlock fails an Evocation or Attunement roll, they may inflict one wound on themselves to make the roll successful.

In addition, the Warlock has [Abjuration].



Warrior:

[Overpower]:
When a warrior receives a wound from a melee opponent, they may make a Strength attack to that opponent.

[Sword and Board]:
When a warrior has a shield equipped, increase Endurance by 3 points.

[Berzerker]:
When a warrior doesn't have a shield equipped, increase Strength by 2 points.



Monk:

A monk may choose one of the following when a fight begins:

[Stance of the Fierce Tiger]:
Increase Strength by 2 points.

[Stance of the Wise Serpent]:
Increase Mending by 2 points.

[Stance of the Stalwart Ox]:
Increase Endurance by 2 points.



Death Knight:

[Unholy Strength]:
Increase Strength by two points.

[Runeblade]:
A Death Knight may use their Strength to make magic attack rolls.

[Purgatory]:
A Death Knight may continue to fight when it has reached it's maximum amount of wounds.
However, it's strength is reduced by 2 points for every wound above the maximum.



SHAMAN:

[Ancestral Protector]:
A shaman may inflict one wound on themselves to make a successful Mending check.

Choose one of the following:

[Earthmender]
Reduce Strength by 1 point, increase Mending by 2.

Or:                                                                  

[Stormcaller]
Reduce Strength by 1 point, increase Evocation by 2.

Or:

[Runemaster]
Reduce Mending and Evocation by 1 point, increase Strength by 2 and Endurance by 1.


Last edited by erwtenpeller on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:20 am

ohh this updated one is nice! mon may be a dificult onew thow considering thow yes she is a marksman hunter she also spent six months tyring (and ultimatly failing) to become a paladin so in this case how would that theorticaly affect mon's points?
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:23 am

You'll be able to pick some points to divide yourself as well. We'll explain how that could work in a set of future posts, I reckon. We have some numbers to crunch and details to work out.

Rest assured that in addition to the mandatory choices, there will be plenty of things to choose from to customise your character to your playstyle.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:29 am

sweet! the curent way it is with standerd dm im prity restricted to shoot only when mon can shoot.. ware plate and throw grenade/2h hammer but so rairly get that oppertunity XD
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:36 am

If we manage to balance it correctly, you'll either be really good at one thing, or sort of okay at many things, depending on how you divide your points.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:48 am

look forward to seeing the refined versions then
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Rinoi on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:23 am

Some of the effects sound pretty fun, and can really give an unique spin to your character. Such as the Divine Intervention and such. True that it is pretty gamey, but that can be fun! You do mention it, but I believe a lot of discussions will have to be had and moderated to create a satisfying sheet for every character that wants one. Some people will simply feel they should be more powerful, or are mixed classes. Or classes which are technically not in WoW; such as demon-hunters. I have confidence that we're capable of having these talks though. Otherwise, looks fun, and simple enough!
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by -Kuzami/Mina on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:02 pm

My big concern will be for the newbies joining our guild.

There's quite a bit of work that needs to go into making these sheets for everyone.

Generally i'm very much against too big rules for DM'ed events, but i'll keep my concern on a low till i've tried it Smile
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:12 pm

There is a definite list of pros and cons.

Pros:
  • Supports character specializations in rolling events.
  • Experience gained is a cool way of rewarding people for playing.
  • Decreases the divide between PvP, PvE and RP combat.


Cons:
  • Higher start-up difficulty.
  • Higher requirement of DM/Officer moderation.


Both:
  • Veterans of the guild will be more powerful in events.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Clankratchet on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:16 am

I do like this sort of thing. It adds an element of unpredictability to (primarily) combat situations which is nice. Sometimes players get stuck in the trap of "I spin round and kill everything in sight with one shot" due to a lack of boundaries being placed (not that it is the case here, just a general statement.)

One thing I'm not tooooo keen on is the idea of improving statistics after every combat event. I don't think it's very good for flow, and as Wellsworth said, it requires a lot of management. Rather than experience management, perhaps just flat out stat increases?

For example, Nork spends a month in the gym, he gains 1 strength. A very basic interpretation, but I feel that should your character be actively trying to improve a certain area of their abilities, and is seen to be doing so, they could be rewarded?

Or another thought, have stat increases hidden in big guild events for eagle eyed adventurers! If a mage found a dusty old book in an adventure which LO AND BEHOLD, later turns out to be some mega-powerful arcane tome, why not reward that mage with a stat increase to their evocation? This sort of thing can be planned in advance with the preparing of a big event and (I feel) is relatively easily managed.

These stat increases that are "locatable" can still be used in spur of the moment events, but perhaps make it so that no further increases can be made until another mega-guild-story-event happens? I feel they also stop any member from getting too strong and making new members feel like mere chickens in a big ol' crew of kick-ass eagles.

I may be overthinking, but to be honest these are just ideas that float to the top of my head, much like a lot of things I say.

Hey look, something shiny....
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Rinoi on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:14 am

While we’re working on a system like this, I’d like to raise another few problems that could be addressed while we're at it. Most of this comes from a discussion I had with Shapur, so many props to him.

The thing I mainly want to address is the support role in combat; mainly healing. So far, almost all combat comes down to ‘roll to hit, roll to dodge’. So a support character, like a dedicated healer, has to attack as well to have an active part of the fun. Which might not be very fitting to their character.

Or, this character can heal to get people back on their feet. From experience, this happens very rarely. People never seem to run out of wounds. Furthermore, it’s really dull for the healer. Wait until someone falls over. Then, walk over to him, roll some healing check, and he’s back on his feet. Or it happens after combat. This is true to their character, but not much fun during the event itself.

You could also heal people as soon as they take damage. Roll, his wounds are returned to him. Wait again. There’s no chance for glory, there is little chance of fun while others spin around and shoot fireballs and decapitate baddies. Sure, glory is not something many of these types of characters aspire to, but there's also no excitement or much variation. You either heal the person, or you don't and try again next turn. They're not in instant danger anyway.

The other times the support gets to do something fun is if he actively keeps questioning the GM for certain scenarios. ‘Can I take this wound instead of him’. ‘Can I try and save him from this’. etc. etc.


But… what if these options are built into the system? The talent of the paladin being able to reroll one roll each fight inspired me. What if the support can do similar fun things. Like, instead of attacking himself, he may add his roll to one other person’s roll made that turn. A priest infusing someone’s sword to strike true. Creating a shield to block the attack of the enemy etc.

Instead of attacking, he can do something that might be more fitting to his character. Like setting up for the others, while still having the joy of rolling. It also increases the frequency of combo-attacks, which have almost always been fun, but few and far between.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:21 am

I see yes for medics to be bettwe used mabie a cap on hp bassed on the point system above?
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:12 am

There are a few things here to reply to, sooo... Here we go.

Clankratchet wrote:Or another thought, have stat increases hidden in big guild events for eagle eyed adventurers! If a mage found a dusty old book in an adventure which LO AND BEHOLD, later turns out to be some mega-powerful arcane tome, why not reward that mage with a stat increase to their evocation? This sort of thing can be planned in advance with the preparing of a big event and (I feel) is relatively easily managed.

These stat increases that are "locatable" can still be used in spur of the moment events, but perhaps make it so that no further increases can be made until another mega-guild-story-event happens? I feel they also stop any member from getting too strong and making new members feel like mere chickens in a big ol' crew of kick-ass eagles.
This would take a lot more DM moderation then simply handing out experience points at the end of an event and letting players use them to buy their own benefits.

Experience and new perks could come from anywhere. We're not limited to doing it purely through gained experience, but it is a nice baseline and is something that allows players to choose how to develop their characters.

Perks given through special spellbooks, weapons or other items can always be discussed.

Basically, we'd want gaining feats to reflect the character's story. If the character has undergone a change in their story that would warrant the gaining (or removal) of perks or attributes, we can totally do that.



The following examples are rough illustrations of how character advancement could work:

1: Experience Points.
After every guild event, attending characters will be awarded experience points.
A player should also be able to be awarded experience points for spontaneous role-play, or even events of other guilds. If you feel your character should be awarded experience points for something they... Experienced, just ask a Game Master about it.

A player can then use those experience points to buy perks that will advance their character.
These perks can range from a [Bulging Muscles] perk that simply increases your strength, or a perk that gives you a special privilege, like a [Desperate Measures] perk that allows you to re roll a die when you are severly wounded.
The cost of those perks will differ depending on how much impact a perk has on your fighting efficiency.

2: Story Advancement.
Players should be able to be awarded appropriate perks when their story calls for it. This is a role-playing game after all, and the story should always be the driving force, not the system.

Perhaps they have made or found a special enchanted weapon. They should be able to receive a perk that reflects the special properties of that weapon when they have it with them.
This way of progressing your character would cover your concern about finding "loot" during events.

The most important thing is that the system is used to reflect a character's history, strengths and weaknesses. AKA:

"I fight with this special magic weapon, so I am taking/receiving this special magic weapon perk."

Not:

"I have earned a bunch of experience and take the magic weapon perk. Now I better get started on finding a magic weapon to use!"

Rinoi wrote:The thing I mainly want to address is the support role in combat; mainly healing. So far, almost all combat comes down to ‘roll to hit, roll to dodge’. So a support character, like a dedicated healer, has to attack as well to have an active part of the fun. Which might not be very fitting to their character.

Or, this character can heal to get people back on their feet. From experience, this happens very rarely. People never seem to run out of wounds. Furthermore, it’s really dull for the healer. Wait until someone falls over. Then, walk over to him, roll some healing check, and he’s back on his feet. Or it happens after combat. This is true to their character, but not much fun during the event itself.

You could also heal people as soon as they take damage. Roll, his wounds are returned to him. Wait again. There’s no chance for glory, there is little chance of fun while others spin around and shoot fireballs and decapitate baddies. Sure, glory is not something many of these types of characters aspire to, but there's also no excitement or much variation. You either heal the person, or you don't and try again next turn. They're not in instant danger anyway.

The other times the support gets to do something fun is if he actively keeps questioning the GM for certain scenarios. ‘Can I take this wound instead of him’. ‘Can I try and save him from this’. etc. etc.


But… what if these options are built into the system? The talent of the paladin being able to reroll one roll each fight inspired me. What if the support can do similar fun things. Like, instead of attacking himself, he may add his roll to one other person’s roll made that turn. A priest infusing someone’s sword to strike true. Creating a shield to block the attack of the enemy etc.

Instead of attacking, he can do something that might be more fitting to his character. Like setting up for the others, while still having the joy of rolling. It also increases the frequency of combo-attacks, which have almost always been fun, but few and far between.

I've not yet had a chance to sit down and write out the actual combat system, but all of the concerns raised here would be covered in it. Characters will have a set amount of hits they can take before they're taken out, making the healer role much more useful. Supportive abilities, like shielding others and the likes, are dealt with through the Attunement attribute.

If needed, we could write down a list of different supportive effects you could achieve through Attunement, but I would prefer to let the player use their imagination.

Between characters being able to take a set amount of hits before they are taken out, the mending attribute and the attunement attribute, I think supportive characters will have plenty of tools to play around with.



The following is a rough illustration of a supporter in action:

General combat would be handled in a pretty familiar way.
A fight would alternate between two rounds that repeat until the situation has been resolved: Player Actions, and Enemy Actions.
During a player round, every player would be allowed to make one action (usually a roll) that can be anything from attacking or healing, to cowering in a corner.
During the enemy round, the DM would make the enemy characters attack and, when appropriate, move them around.

When a player is attacked in some way during the enemy round, they would have a chance to defend themselves. In most cases, it would be trying to dodge with an Awareness roll. (Alternatively an Attunement roll for a class with [Abjuration], and it might be worth considering letting shield-bearers block with their Strength roll.)

When a player does not manage to avoid being hit, they would be wounded. The Stamina attribute determines how many wounds a character would be able to endure before they are taken out of the fight.

Because of this, damage becomes a more real threat. When a character faints or suffers a real wound is no longer up to the player's discretion, it is determined by the system. This makes restoring wounds a much more tangible activity, with clear effects that impact battles in a very real way.

In addition to healing, players may support other players through a wild variety of buffs through Attunement rolls. Giving your friends a re roll if they failed a crucial (and epic) attack, giving them a protective shield (practically increasing their stamina stat) temporarily, blessing their weapon to increase their damage or attack chance are all things that could be possible. A clever DM might ask players who want to do an Attunement roll to make it before the rest goes, so the others can enjoy it's effects without confusion. A clever player might wait to see how a round plays out, and save their attunement roll for the player who needs it most.



---



Pfff... This post has become extremely wordy. Another big downside to using a system: Players have to actually sit down and read the rules and possibilities. Then again-- A lot of role-players are already very familiar with that necessity, I'm sure. :3

I hope this sheds some Light on how I see things play out in my head, and addresses some of your concerns. I'll need more time to write it down in greater detail, and with wording that makes it all much clearer and easier to follow.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Rinoi on Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:42 am

erwtenpeller wrote:In addition to healing, players may support other players through a wild variety of buffs through Attunement rolls. Giving your friends a re roll if they failed a crucial (and epic) attack, giving them a protective shield (practically increasing their stamina stat) temporarily, blessing their weapon to increase their damage or attack chance are all things that could be possible. A clever DM might ask players who want to do an Attunement roll to make it before the rest goes, so the others can enjoy it's effects without confusion. A clever player might wait to see how a round plays out, and save their attunement roll for the player who needs it most.

I think this has a lot of potential to make the support role appealing. Meaningful choices and ways to contribute to the action, without resorting to fighting yourself (which would not suit some characters).

erwtenpeller wrote:When a player does not manage to avoid being hit, they would be wounded. The Stamina attribute determines how many wounds a character would be able to endure before they are taken out of the fight.

The question is, how will this be different from current fights? People might have ignored how many hits they could take in the past, etc. But in my experience, fighting, I don’t often get hit more than 3 times. The rest I dodge, or the rest of the hits go on other people. With avoidance, I might dodge even more.

Why should I be healed from 4 to 5 health, instead of at the end of combat, from 1 to 5 health? I see a few paths here;

Stamina is very limited: People have 1 to 3 stamina. One or two hits can take them out of the fight. Healers are vital to keep everyone engaged and to win a fight.

Hits are painful and hard to avoid: Some blows do 2-3 damage. Dodging, even with avoidance, is a hard roll to make. Basically the same as the first one, but off-setting the pain on the attacks instead of the life of the player.

Wounds limit you: Wounds cause characters to lose their bonuses. They can’t concentrate or put full force behind an attack. This makes heals wanted even at (close) to max health.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:28 pm

And then, what happens when a fight does not have any healers? In your quest for making them more interesting, you might make them too important and have any chance of success depend on them.

I have personally never experienced playing a non-combat character as uninteresting. They might not shine as much during combat events, but those are only a small portion of role-play anyway.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Rinoi on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:52 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:They might not shine as much during combat events, but those are only a small portion of role-play anyway.
This whole system is for combat, so that seems like a strange concern.

And if there are no healers, the GM could compensate by making hits easier to dodge or do less damage. Or they become more of a slug-fest. Either works.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by -Kuzami/Mina on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:40 pm

I'll have to disagree with you here Rinoi.

Playing a healer/supporter for DM'ed events can be very entertaining, even if people arent dying left and right. I was a healer during the Horde's rebellion events where we often used the system called Bloodied Blades. Here players have 7 hitpoints and i never felt like i couldnt do anything. On the occasions there were no wounds i could just beat stuff with my mace aswell.
Being a healer shouldnt be limiting yourself to one thing, but rather be able to heal when nescessary.

Having a DM compensate events if there's no healer present would be a bad move imo. Suddenly any event will work just aswell with or without a healer. I'd much prefer that if we ran into an event with no healer, we'd be pressed hard, maybe even losing and having to retreat etc.

That's one of the things i miss about these DM'ed events. We never ever lose, unless its part of the storyline. I'm not asking to lose often, but sometimes it would be fine to actually take a beating and run. DM'ed events with sheets/rules/hitpoints will open up for that. Lets not ruin it by compensating a weak group composition.

Anyway. My point is: Healing and supporting can be just as fun as beating up stuff for events. If someone doesent like healing for events, then they can make a fighter character instead imo. Like... We all know Linming is a priesty healer, but if he/she doesent enjoy the heal/support role for events, he can just Holy Smite the shit out of encounters instead.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Yuan'Do on Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:32 pm

_
_
Furthering the System

After careful consideration and chats with quite a few people, Erwt and I have come up with some more ideas we feel will make the system easier to grasp.  We've added stat allowances and are working on feats and the 'levelling up' system now.

A Novice character will now begin with 7 points.
The Novice is a fresh face, learned a little though largely inexperienced.  Younger characters, or characters who have only recently begun training should consider starting here.  Characters with limited training might also consider beginning at this level.
A Tested character begins with 10 points.
The Tested has swung his sword a few times, and even managed to land a few hits.  His spells scorch, rather than fizzle.  In a battle, he knows a little more of what to expect and how to react.  These characters might not be soldiers, but they have learned the basics of combat or their chosen profession.
A Seasoned character begins with 12 points.
The Seasoned character has fought and lived to tell the tale.  Their aim is true, and their powers growing quickly.  Trained soldiers, well practiced magicians and the devout of the Light.  The Seasoned Braves hold the line.

Characters regarded as Veterans will be afforded up to 15 points.  These characters will have to have been present and actively RPing for a considerable amount of time before we will consider letting them take this.  They are cornerstones of their professions, often regarded highly by others with similar talents.  Veterans have seen it all, and come out on top.

These points can be allocated among the stats listed by Erwt on page 1.  
Stamina, Strength, Agility, Awareness, Evocation, Attunement and Mending.

When your character is created, you may spend your points as you please.  One consideration in particular should be stamina, as this governs your characters' effective health.

Here is mine -
_________________________________________________________________________________
Yuan'Do Oxheart (Seasoned)

Strength - 3
Stamina - 6 (4 from points, 2 from the Pandaren racial.)
Awareness - 4
Agility - 1

(All other skills are set to 0, and as such, confer no roll modifier.)

Feats -
Racial - Pandaren:
[Bearheart]: Increase Stamina by 2 points.
Class -Warrior:
[Overpower]:  When a warrior receives a wound from a melee opponent, they may make a Strength attack to that opponent.

[Sword and Board]:  When a warrior has a shield equipped, increase Stamina by 3 points.

[Berzerker]:  When a warrior doesn't have a shield equipped, increase Strength by 2 point    


_________________________________________________________________________________

For every point in a skill, your roll is modified by +5.  4 Strength will mean +20, or /roll 20-100
Negative points reduce your roll at the same rate.  -2 Evocation will mean -10 or /roll 1-90.

At time of writing, we plan to allow characters to grow by purchasing simple feats with experience points awarded from RP and events.  We are still working on a list of viable feats, so stay tuned!


Last edited by Yuan'Do on Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:58 pm

This post pleases me.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:20 pm

so where is this sheet data then?
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Yuan'Do on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:21 pm

Monrena wrote:so where is this sheet data then?

All the information you need is on page 1 of this thread, and in my previous post.
I'd suggest just using mine as a template and changing the variables.
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

Post by Monrena on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:23 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:Yuan and me have been talking about systems throughout the day, and the following is a proposal for a series of base attributes, racial and class feats that I dreamt up during those conversations. Details about the combat system have yet to be written down.

BASE ATTRIBUTES:
These are the base starts that drive combat rolls. Investing points in these will make your character more proficient in making the actions associated with them.

Stamina:
Every point of Endurance adds one wound a character can take before being taken out of the fight.
Wounds can be restored by Mending.

Strength:
Every point of Strength adds +5 to any roll made to make melee attacks, or actions that require physical strength.

Agility:
Every point of Agility adds +5 to any roll made to make ranged attacks, or actions that require precision.

Awareness:
Every point of Awareness adds +5 to any roll made to avoid taking damage, and any roll made to spot things in the environment.

Evocation:
Every point of Evocation adds +5 to any roll made to cast a harmful spell.

Attunement:
Every point of Attunement adds +5 to any roll made to cast non-harmful* spells.
* Example: Protective shields, Wards, buffs, environment changes, weather-- etc.

Mending:
Every point of Mending adds +5 to any roll made to restore a wound.



RACIAL FEATS:
Every race has their own strengths and weaknesses. Racial Feats add some base attributes, and sometimes unique mechanics to your character.

Human:

[The Human Condition]:
Choose one Base Attribute and increase it by 1 point.

Dwarf:

[Short and Stout]:
Increase Stamina and Strength by 1 point.

Night Elf:

[One with the forest]:
Increase Agility and Attunement by 1 point.

Gnome:

[Expansive Mind]:
Reduce Stamina by two points.
Increase Evocation and Attunement by 2 points.

Draenei:

[Gift of the Naaru]:
Increase mending by 3 points.

Worgen:

[Feral Beast]:
Increase Awareness and Strength by 1 point.

Pandaren:

[Bearheart]:
Increase Stamina by 2 points.



CLASS FEATS:
Every class has their own strengths and weaknesses. Class Feats add some base attributes, and sometimes unique mechanics to your character.
The following are made to reflect the classes as they are presented to us in game. If you want to create a snowflake class for your character, you might be able to by staring a dialogue about it.




Druid:

[Wild Senses]:
When performing a roll for tracking in a feral form, temporarily add 2 points to Awareness.

In addition, choose one of the following:

[Druid of the Claw]:
Reduce Evocation by one point, increase Strength and Endurance by one.

Or:

[Druid of the Talon]:
Reduce Strength by one point, increase Evocation by two.

Or:

[Keeper of the Grove]:
Reduce Endurance by one point, increase Mending by two.



Hunter:

[Marksman]:
Increase Agility by two points.

[Survival Instincts]:
Increase Awareness by one point.

[Beast Master]:
The hunter may use their Agility score to attack with their pet.



Mage:

[Scholar]:
Reduce Brawn and Endurance by one point, increase Evocation and Attunement by two.

[Abjuration]:
The character may use their Attunement instead of their Awareness to avoid wounds.



Paladin:

[Champion of the Light]:
Increase Endurance and Mending by one point.

[Divine Intervention]:
Once every fight, a paladin may choose to re-roll a bad roll.

[Smite the wicked]:
When facing an opponent perceived as "evil", the character may make a magic attack using their Mending.



Priest:

Choose one of the following:

[Disciple of Light]:
Reduce Strength by two points, Increase Mending by two points and Attunement by one.

In addition, the priest gains [Smite the Wicked].

Or:

[Acolyte of Shadow]:
Reduce Strength by two points, increase Evocation by two points and Attunement by one.

In addition, the priest gains [Abjuration].



Rogue:

[Stealth]:
When not engaged with an enemy, a rogue may choose to hide.
A hidden rogue cannot be attacked unless revealed.

[Ambush]:
The first attack made from stealth is always successful.
You may still roll to see if it will crit.

[Disengage]:
If a rogue successfully avoids taking a wound, the rogue may choose to Stealth.



Warlock:

[Scholar of the Dark Arts]:
Reduce Strength by two points. Increase Evocation by two points, and Endurance by one.

[Blood Pact]:
When the warlock fails an Evocation or Attunement roll, they may inflict one wound on themselves to make the roll successful.

In addition, the Warlock has [Abjuration].



Warrior:

[Overpower]:
When a warrior receives a wound from a melee opponent, they may make a Strength attack to that opponent.

[Sword and Board]:
When a warrior has a shield equipped, increase Endurance by 3 points.

[Berzerker]:
When a warrior doesn't have a shield equipped, increase Strength by 2 points.



Monk:

A monk may choose one of the following when a fight begins:

[Stance of the Fierce Tiger]:
Increase Strength by 2 points.

[Stance of the Wise Serpent]:
Increase Mending by 2 points.

[Stance of the Stalwart Ox]:
Increase Endurance by 2 points.



Death Knight:

[Unholy Strength]:
Increase Strength by two points.

[Runeblade]:
A Death Knight may use their Strength to make magic attack rolls.

[Purgatory]:
A Death Knight may continue to fight when it has reached it's maximum amount of wounds.
However, it's strength is reduced by 2 points for every wound above the maximum.



SHAMAN:

[Ancestral Protector]:
A shaman may inflict one wound on themselves to make a successful Mending check.

Choose one of the following:

[Earthmender]
Reduce Strength by 1 point, increase Mending by 2.

Or:                                                                  

[Stormcaller]
Reduce Strength by 1 point, increase Evocation by 2.

Or:

[Runemaster]
Reduce Mending and Evocation by 1 point, increase Strength by 2 and Endurance by 1.


so its this offitialy then?
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Re: RPG Combat System (Work in progress) - Oxheart

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