Custom combat system.

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Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:51 pm

LONG READ INCOMING. Tried to explain everything as best as I could, making it seemingly more complicated than it is.

As you may know a different kind of DM combat system was discussed on these very forums last summer which seems to no longer be (and I don't know if it ever has been) in use, which I find regrettable. That's why I came up with a new, but much simpler system (I will almost certainly use this system in my events) which doesn't require as much managing but still adds more variety to characters while also limiting them, as the system we currently use (roll 50+ to attack, 90+ to crit and X+ to block) can get boring very fast.

For this system each character must be assigned two values and three traits.

I'll start off with the first, and probably the most important one: The Melee-Ranged rating. What the fel does this mean you may ask? Well, first of all a character can be assigned one of the numbers in the following table, which is decisive in the use of certain weaponry. A character, extremely proficient at firing guns or casting ranged spells will automatically have his melee ranged skills decreased. Here's a table to make it clear.

MR-rating











12345
Roll to hit - melee40+45+50+55+60+
Roll to hit - ranged60+55+50+45+40+
I.E.: Harold, my own character, is pretty good at swinging his axe or sword but a 'meh' gunman. For this reason I give him an MR-Rating of 2, meaning he will be able to hit enemies or help friends in melee range with a roll of 45+ or higher and attack enemies or help friends far away with a roll of 55+, creating a slight variation between characters with different proficiencies.

Secondly, I thought of a Power system, indicating whether your playing a weak, medium or strong character. The philosophy behind this is system is that weak (or maybe novice) characters can get slightly luckier, while a powerful or strong character retains full control of their powers and abilities at (almost) all times, causing them to able to charge up or prepare for stronger attacks. A table for clarification:

Power











WeakMediumStrong
Roll to crit85+90+95+
Attack Tiers1up to 2up to 3
What are these Attack Tiers you may ask now. Here's a list and what they mean:

  • Tier 1 or the basic attack: You roll and attack depending on your MR-rating and range, and deal 1 damage (+ possible critical damage).
  • Tier 2 or a strong attack: This attack takes two turns: On the first the player may roll and potentially gain 1 charge depending on his MR-rating (rolling a critical has no effect in this stage of the attack). On the second turn he may roll again and do 3 damage (+ possible critical damage) whether or not the player has rolled successfully. If the attack fails the character loses his charge and must start over if he wants to do a Tier 2 attack.
  • Tier 3 or an ultimate attack: This attack follows the example of the Tier 2 attack, but takes two successful turns to charge. If performed well, this attack does 6 damage (+ possible critical damage).


On a side note: Critical attacks add 2 damage to the base damage and attacks from enemies can be blocked with a roll higher than 40, unless stated otherwise by the DM.

And last but not least the traits: Every player can assign his character three traits which can alter certain attacks or turn around a whole battle. How they work will be explained in every trait (there are only six traits though):


  • Area of Effect: If the player rolls above 75+ he can choose to deal half of the total damage to all enemies. (This effect can not be used on the same turn as the 'Precision' trait.)
  • Precision: If the player rolls above 75+ he can deal one additional damage to the target (single target, this effect can not be used on the same turn as the 'Area of Effect' trait.)
  • Minion: The pet/minion of the player can attack too but only deals half the damage of a normal player. Minions can have one trait assigned themselves (excluding the 'Minion' trait). A minion can only execute Tier 1 attacks, is unable to block/dodge incoming attacks (unless it has the block trait assigned) and automatically has an MR of 3 (unless specified otherwise).


  • Shielding: Can once a battle block all incoming damage for one turn. Can block/dodge by default with a 30+ roll.
  • Healer: Instead of dealing damage to an enemy you can heal an ally for the amount of damage you would have dealt. Stacks with the AoE trait and the MR-rating also applies for this one.
  • Incapacitate: Instead of dealing damage to an enemy you can stun a target, preventing them from dealing damage this turn. Success will depend on the MR-rating. Each target can only be incapacitated once a battle.


Assigning these traits won't mean you don't have any other options during a fight. You could still trade in your attack for doing things not set in stone by these traits, in example: A character who wants to heal must have the healing trait, but a character who wants to jump in front of an ally to protect him/her from an incoming attack may do that anytime in exchange for attack that turn.

Now what would the participant have to do?
-> Assign an MR-rating, a power level and three traits.
Here would be Harold's as an example:
Spoiler:
Harold Bonsteel:

  • MR-rating: 2
  • Power: Medium
  • Area of Effect | Minion | Shielding

Giggles (Harold's minion):

  • Precision

The default settings I will be using for every character who partakes in the events I will organize:
Character:

  • MR-rating: 3
  • Power: Medium
  • Healing | Incapacitate | Area of Effect


If you have any criticism (preferably the constructive kind), notes, thoughts or questions, feel free to leave a response (and create a lil' thingy for your char's too)!


Last edited by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:31 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Halewood on Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:58 pm

after reading through these ideas I think you did a great job , I was personally thinking of a way to make it so the fact that a swordsman would be better at melee than a ranged but was thinking about it like +10 if you are good with swords. But the MR rating is a great idea and the same with power. However , If I steal these methods (Which I probably will) I most likely would avoid the rest as it requires too much management in my opinion and during large DM events this would be way too much to deal with , Although thats personal opinion so feel free to try it :3. As for Alek and Ericka....

Alek:

As Alek is a Death Knight he would have an MR of 2 , He has a focus of melee but is also proficient with magic. His strength would be strong mainly because Alek is once again a Death Knight and his charged abilities tend to be pretty badass and so require damage to match so...
Alekszander Halewood
MR-Rating: 2
Power: Strong
Area of Effect | Shielding | Incapacitate

Ericka:

Ericka is my new mage character , I am currently still leveling her but I may aswell do her MR too.
Her MR would be 5 except for the fact that I can see an error there thats shows both of them requiring 60 instead of just the melee , Just saying :3. And her strength would be medium as she is a trained mage but isn't great so...
Ericka Hallewell
MR-Rating: 5
Power: Medium
Precision | Minion | Area of Effect

Nameless Minion
Precision

Eliana:

Insane paladin... Yeah.
Eliana Hardale
MR-Rating: 2
Power : Medium
Shielding | Precision | Area of Effect

Otherwise good job on the idea. Its pretty simple and would work pretty well in my opinion. Although another problem I see is people perhaps claiming custom MR's and/or changing them often.

If the traits work well I will add them to my characters.Keep us updated I would love to see how this system develops!


Last edited by Halewood on Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:28 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:55 pm

Alright, thanks for the response Aleks (and for pointing out that error, must've gone over my head :3). I know you won't use the traits in your events but could you still add them to your chars to use them in mine? Otherwise I'll just use the default if you don't mind.

(I won't allow custom MR's to be used in my events though).

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Halewood on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:06 pm

Np! and Done :3
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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Tygos on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:33 pm

Tygos wrote:
Tygos "Thunderfist"
MR-rating: 3
power: Strong?
Area of Effect l Incapacitate l Healer (bad one tho)
Right, I think i understand it, and I agree with alek on "I see is people perhaps claiming custom MR's and/or changing them often." and I think the simpler way would maybe be that you choose for example magi and you get easier casting spells like 40+ in stead of 50 and as events pass lets say 5 for example, you can advance to experienced magi and get 35+ instead of 40 and down to 30 as the lowest maybe?
but I will watch as this evolves , keep up the good job

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:47 pm

The problem when creating classes like in example a mage will still be the same I'm afraid. People will start asking for custom classes like spellblades, runemasters, ninjas, kitten summoners etc, causing us to end up with a whole bunch of additional stats/classes to track since there are so many kinds of spells and guns and swords and... And people will still want to change after a while. Also, I do not wish to keep track of any form of experience in this system and that is why I think the Power and MR-system (which is static and can't be customized for my events) is more efficient.

Also, I won't take in account how good you are at a certain trait, your char can always get (un)lucky. Very Happy

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Halewood on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:50 pm

I believe something that might help is perhaps a forum where everyone states their static MR and power would work meaning no one can change it
Though , That will require lots of people to agree with the system
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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Tygos on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:50 pm

I would say that for example there will be soldier, magi, healer and you pick one of them regardless of being spellblade, cat summoner or thing and pick one most fitting and get bonuses from that. for simplicity, or for a start. as for example if you start as a magi and you rp as a spellblade lets give people free choice when "leveling up" to pick between the three choices so you can go magi then soldier and get 40+ in spells and melee instead of having to go down only one going from magi to experienced magi and so on

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:59 pm

Maybe but this goes against my ideal of RP combat being balanced and this mage, soldier, healer system doesn't take in account characters who do not identify with any of the latter, like rogues or rangers/hunters (maybe they could be soldiers but that doesn't seem right in my opinion). Characters would become OP in my eyes if they get to choose when they can level up and it would be just as hard if not harder to keep track of for every player as they can progress in these classes. Therefore I prefer the MR system to any more complicated system.

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Tygos on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:10 pm

i mostly used the soldier,mage, healer as a example but it becomes more op probably yeah, but keeping track of it could be done in easy in the guild tab just adding magi 1 or something like that

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:26 pm

I'd still prefer the simplicity of the MR-rating which is just a numner between one and five. Guess I'm just a simple man...
Maybe it's best to wait and see how it turns out...

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Tygos on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:32 pm

well I was mostly just trying to present options Smile

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:36 pm

I know and I really appreciate your contribution, heck, maybe my system will turn out to be utter crap and then I'd probably give your idea a shot. Anyways, I want more diversity in characters Very Happy

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Rinoi on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:40 pm

Ah, combat systems. I haven't used many- but I have discussed quite a bunch now! So before I make my character in this, allow me to splooge my thoughts on the whole concept first, and then more specifically yours. I may come of as being very critical at times. But know that I applaud your initiative with this and I hope to see it evolve. So first off, a not at all complete list on designing;

Designing anything.


Why?
What are the problems we're solving.
When designing anything, the first thing you ought to know and put down is… Why. Why are you designing a thing. What problems are you solving? In this case, combat systems are supposed to offer a formalized system to make combat in RP smoother. Now, we already have a system. Several ones. So what problems do these systems have, that need solving. And why are these things problems. Are they problems because they're boring? If so, what is boring. Does it take too long? Is it always the same? Consider all these things. If you don't give me context on this, it just reads as a bunch of numbers. If what you are adding doesn't solve these things, it shouldn't be added. Possible problems I can think of, off the top of my head are these, although they clearly need to be further specified;
Some problems to solve:


  • Fights are just bad guy swings/good guy swings. Very predictable, and possibly dull.
  • There's little chance in bringing out your character in the combat system, just in the emotes you associate with your rolls.
  • There's little chance to be creative with it, like blowing up a rock to fall on a dude. That has to be GM orchestrated, and there's no system for it.
  • Wounds, healing, etc. are irrelevant most of the time.


How?
Now we come up with solutions.
Knowing what the problems are, in detail, lead us to coming up with design things to fix them. This is the making of a system. Why do we need stats, crits, perks, experience, talents, etc. All these things. Relate them back to the problems you are solving. If you can't, or you are stretching to, are they really necessary? For example, what part of the dullness of combat does giving melee/ranged characters a separate roll-chance give, as opposed to the old system? Elaborate, and build the ways to fix problems on solid foundations.

Making it happen
To get anything working, you need to test it. To get to test it, you need people using your system. To get them doing this, you gotta enthuse them and convince them why it's gonna be a great thing! Tell anecdotes on why this system is gonna be the best. This read rather dryly, it didn't speak much to my imagination. I didn't understand parts of it until I read it several times.




Specific Notes...


Alright, so with that part of critique out of the way… Which is by far the most important part! … I'll go into a flurry of questions. Many of them could probably be elaborated on by checking the above design pointers. Most of these are from the top of my head, rant-style. So they might not all be super relevant.

Numbers
The MR rating is at its most extreme, a difference of 20/100. That feels like very little.

Classes
What about specific classes? You touched on this in the discussion. Mages can fight up close or far away. Shapeshifters switch shape, that's their thing. Some characters are sword-fighters, and mages, they could be proficient at both. People RP a wide variety of things. As soon as you box them in, there are people that won't fit. Now I agree that good characters should have both talents and flaws, but is melee/ranged the most determining one there?

Power
The idea of a scale in how trained your character is, is interesting. Some characters are less trained than others. The idea of charging attacks is also interesting. But I can't quite see how these things are related. It seems rather arbitrary to say that someone who is strong, can charge an attack longer. And someone who is weak has more of a chance to poke someone in the eye with their jab.

AoE damage
What about AoE damage to your allies? Is that a thing that also happens when you choose to do AoE damage? From experience, this has happened… a fair bunch of times. Friendly fire is painful.

Life
How much health do things have, and what happens when they lose it? Do they die when they reach 0? Are they just out of the fight? Does anything else happen while they're getting wounded? Is it harder to heal a person who is down and out? Is there a reason to heal someone who only took 1 damage?

Keeping track
Who is going to keep track of all the numbers that people roll? Is the DM going to have a piece of paper and scribble all this down?

Combat turns
How does combat go? Hero turn/Bad guy turn? Are there any changes here? Do you roll before you emote. Does the DM reply individually to each roll. Various systems do this differently.

Being attacked
You mention en passant that a 30+ roll dodges things, or you could choose to block all damage if you have a trait. What about really powerful enemies, does this number change at  all? And if so, are there any rules for how it does? Does the block still mitigate all damage then?

Traits
Six traits from which you may pick three seems rather lackluster. A lot of people will have the same things, whereas the diversity of the Band is part of its appeal. Just rule-wise, some could be incredibly overpowered. One person incapicitates the bad guy, everyone else wails on him. If everyone had this trait, only one person had to roll 75+ and you could win anything with one baddy trivially easy. I am not advocating a massive expansion of this list, but perhaps the traits themselves need to be broader in what they are.


That's it for now. The main take away is that every design-choice needs to be part of solving a perceived problem. If the problems you're solving aren't clearly spoken out, it's just random numbers in the void. Anyway, feel free to ask stuff in return, or critique my critique. Here's Rin;

Rinoi Du'nai wrote:Rinoi Du'nai
MR-rating: 1
Power: Medium
Shielding | Precision | Incapacitate
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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Hurrrold on Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:38 pm

I will write a well structured response after Wednesday's event in which I will probably test the system with the people who made their 'sheet'.

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Re: Custom combat system.

Post by Tygos on Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:49 pm

As a like side idea or note, i like the health idea like if you reach 0 you get knocked out or other wise unable to fight until healed and if everyone reaches 0 the event fails or the ending differs

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